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Twilight: The Texts and the Fandom, Week 5 re-cap

October 1, 2010

This week we focused on romance, intertexuality, and the representations of men/masculinity of the saga.

On Monday, in response to the writing options (posted here) the majority of students chose Option 1, writing a about a fantasy partner. Many expressed their dislike for the savior/damsel in distress meme of the saga and noted they don’t want or need a partner to “save” them. A number of students argued Bella and Edward are too co-dependent and their relation is overly obsessive and unrealistic. In terms of fantasy partners, the most common desired attributes were a partner who  they can laugh with, be friends with, and share a non-controlling, egalitarian relationship with.

The best model for a healthy couple in the saga was repeatedly named as Alice and Jasper. As one student wrote, “Most marriages last not because of love, but because of how well you function together.” The notion that Bella and Edward do not function together well was echoed by many.

Though I do not find the criticism of their relationship surprising, it makes me wonder how many fans out there are truly “Team Edward” and how many feel the same way about Bella and Edward’s relationship. Are the responses of these (all but one) female college students different given that they, unlike Bella, see the importance of placing primacy on education and future career options? Or, conversely, do fans across the spectrum of experiences recognize the problematic aspects of Edward as romantic partner?

A few students chose Option 2, writing “alternative romantic myths.” Some of their alternatives included “Love isn’t easy,” “There is more than one type of love,” “Love can hurt,” and “Love yourself first,” “When one door closes, another door opens.”

  • Only one student chose Option 4, recasting the films. Her choices were very intriguing. She cast as follows (my comments in parenthesis):
  • Director: Quentin Tarantino (wow, would make for  MUCH bloodier adaptations with many more beheadings than just Victoria’s!)
  • Bella: Anne Hathaway (ooooh, Bella as Ella Enchanted revamped – interesting!)
  • Edward: Robert Pattinson (only person she kept the same)
  • Esme: Kate Winslet (ooh and then Carlisle could be Leonardo diCaprio! – though I love Facinelli)
  • Carlisle: Denzel Washington (huh – not sure how the ultra blond do would work on him….)
  • Jasper: Adam Brody (a great alternative! he has got the Jasper look down…)
  • Emmett: Andy Samberg (hmmm, not sure he lives up to my own picture of Emmett…)
  • Rosalie:  Frieda Pinto from Slumdog Millionaire (hmmm, again, the choice highlights how WHITE the saga is…)
  • Alice: Natalie Portman (love this choice!)

On Wednesday, in response to the discussion about the saga’s depiction of males and masculinity, students shared many insights, a few of which are highlighted below.

  • Jasper is likely such a fan favorite due to his relationship with Alice
  • Though many of the male characters fit inside the “real man box,” especially in regards to their violent tendencies, many also express deep and varied emotions (something that is more traditionally associated with femininity)
  • Emmett , some argued, is a hypermasculine jerk. Yet, a few “Team Emmett” people in the room vocally disagreed…
  • The saga’s depiction of single dads (Billy, Charlie) is rare and refreshing
  • Billy Black and Sam Clearwater are presented as rather old and ineffectual according to some. Some felt representing Billy as disabled was good, others felt it made him appear weak (not because he was disabled but due to the way the disability was represented).
  • Jacob was variously discussed as a better option than Edward, as a more realistic partner, and as too violent/controlling/manipulative
  • The Volturi were discussed as the “hyper-patriarchs” who won’t let their wives out of the tower
  • Surprisingly, no one had anything good to say about Edward…  (perhaps some of you might like to counter this in comments!)

On a final note, one of the most interesting student papers I read this week read Bree Tanner in relation to rape culture, arguing her forced turn to vampirism can be read in relation to the rape meme and violent masculinity that underpins the saga.

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40 Comments leave one →
  1. October 1, 2010 8:24 pm

    On the Edward not being depicted positively on the class.
    If you take a look at all the polls Edward vs. Jacob always win so the Team Edward are mostly silent. When I entered the Twilightworld I also though that Jacob was the favorite but what happened is that people got tired of trying to show all the good traits Edward has and Team Jacob’s are usually more vocal and more socially accepted because Edward is the fantasy unrealistic one or the “abusive” one, there is usually little effort on understanding Edward and you can even notice that when in the movie Bella and Jacob has song themes while Edward hasn’t.
    The movies don’t help (not sure what book did the students had read so far) because they tone down a lot of Jacob’s bad traits while accentuating the positive ones (that I think is due to the fact that he is the one that lost the girl and many people had been on unrequited relationships or even if now they have partner they still remember the one that got away) and the abs do help to look at it as symphatetic.

    Something that strike me as interesting is that Team Jacob’s never think that Jacob is trying to broke a relationship and look at his actions as justified because of his own prejudices about vampires even if is Bella’s choice to become one he doesn’t respect that choices. I wonder if Jacob was a girl trying to break up a couple (for whatever reasons) would they think of her on the same way?
    In the end Team Edward’s know what they like and we won so if Team Jacob’s want to think the heaven of him well its the only thing left to them. Its the same reason you find more Harmoniacs (Harry and Hermione shippers) writing fan fic: they lost its all they have left. Of course all this is IMO and I could be wrong.

    • October 2, 2010 3:28 am

      I am Team Jacob so I want to respond to the part about Team Jacobs not paying attention to him breaking up a relationship. Here’s why I still stand by Jacob.

      1) His goal is for her to NOT die. I’d do everything in my power to make sure my friend didn’t die either, even if she thought it was a great idea. I thought it was a great idea to get a tattoo at 17, and now I’ve spent $1200 at 28 years old trying to get it removed.

      2) Bella is sending major mixed signals. She wanted to be all up under Jacob through “New Moon” and when Edward came back, she STILL wanted to see him. In “Eclipse” she plotted on how to get away from the slumber party. She was all giddy every single time he came over in “Breaking Dawn.” It’s very difficult to make someone believe you’re not interested if you CONTINUE to always want them around. She blew up his phone when he wouldn’t talk to her in “Eclipse.” She called him nonstop and went to his house in “New Moon.” If I was Jacob, I’d be thinking the same thing, “Are you SURE you’re in love with Edward because you’re sweating me awfully hard!”

      #3 Jacob knew that if she became a vampire, she could put her father in an awful lot of danger. Since she grew up with Bella and knew Charlie like he was his own father (and clearly they were around each other even before Bella got there), he knew Charlie was going to be incredibly hurt if Bella disappeared for good. As a friend, I’d want to look out for someone I looked at as father-like, too.

      #4 If someone tries to kiss me, I punch them hard enough to break my hand, I don’t then let them come to my house so I can complain to Dad. She uninvited him to a party (oooh! burn! burn!) but then was friends with him again 2.5 seconds later because he wanted to help the Cullens. She let Jacob lick her face as a werewolf and cuddled up next to him. For somebody who wants distance, she sure did send a lot of mixed signals.

      With that said though, I definitely would’ve left her alone. I don’t like mindgames. Jacob apparently can handle them.

      • natalie wilson permalink*
        October 3, 2010 4:43 pm

        Thanks for your thoughtful defense of Jacob, Shamontiel!!!

      • October 4, 2010 2:22 am

        1) His goal was for her to choose him not to die was because he didn’t considered vampires alive. Something that it was his perception not her. If he really wanted her to convince her not to turn he could had tried to show her the beauty of being human without having a relationship with her being a factor.

        2) So if a woman sent mixes signals she is asking for him to break up her relationship even if she clearly states with her mouth that she just want to be friends? This reasoning reminds me a lot to: Your mouth might say NO but your body say yes.

        3) How many times did Jacob pleaded for Bella not turn because of Charlie? I mean on the books, because I remember he only did it for him and him only, but I could be wrong.

        4) She always told her she just wanted to be friends, always. Again body say yes and mouth say no its an acceptable excuse to try and break a relationship or kiss someone without their consent?

      • October 4, 2010 2:28 am

        Ana,
        In response to your comments:
        1) Vampires are NOT alive. They choose to breathe, but they don’t have to. This wasn’t just speculation. It was the truth. Show her the beauty of being human? That’s like me showing a lifeguard the beauty of being at the beach. She was already human so there’s no point in showing her what she already knew.

        2) She did state with her mouth that she wanted to be friends. However, she also stated with her mouth that she wanted to kiss him, THEN kissed him TWICE in the book and ONCE in the movie, snuggled up against him and told him he was her son, and repeatedly snuck off with him and called him nonstop…with her mouth AND her body.

        3) In “Breaking Dawn,” he had a conversation with her about Charlie and he was the one who told Charlie something was up. However, the way he did it only talked about him transforming and left the rest up to Bella to explain. In “New Moon,” I believe he pointed it out, too. But Bella repeatedly pointed out that she’d have to leave her parents behind although Edward kept reminding her that she didn’t have to turn. (That was one thing I did like about Edward. He protested her being a vampire as much if not more than Jacob.)

        4) Kiss someone without their consent? Did you read “Eclipse” or see the movie yet? She willingly kissed that man, ran her fingers through his hair and stated in the book that even though his body was close to hers, it wasn’t close enough. I’d say that’s pretty willing!

      • October 4, 2010 2:29 am

        Typographical error: I meant she told him he was her “sun,” not “son.”

    • natalie wilson permalink*
      October 3, 2010 4:50 pm

      Great points about the great Jacob/Edward divide!
      I agree the movies depict Jacob far differently than the books.

  2. October 1, 2010 8:30 pm

    Another mention is that how many males are on your group? I ask because Alice is the one dominating the relationship with Jasper. In the books, he doesn’t speak or act or does anything without Alice approval, knowledge or consent, he has little agency on his own (mind you could be because he is the one with the less control but still Alice practically has him on a leash) and yet they think of them as the most egalitarian… I would like to know if male would see the relationship on the same way.

    • natalie wilson permalink*
      October 3, 2010 4:49 pm

      There is only one male in the class. I too wish there were more to get a more balanced perspective. On the other hand, it is great in other ways to have a predominantly female class as too many males in a classroom changes the dynamic. For one, males (due to male privilege and codes of masculinity) sometimes tend to dominate the discussion… I am pleased there is a lot of other types of diversity in the class regards to race/socio-economic standing, etc.

  3. October 2, 2010 3:18 am

    All right, I’m going to go through this point for point. (By the way, I *heart* this whole entire idea of discussing the course online.)

    #1 I definitely think that Alice and Jasper had a great relationship. The only problem was that if Alice was not a stronger person, Jasper could’ve talked her into going backwards. Remember in “Twilight” AND “New Moon” that Alice had to walk away from Bella bleeding and called for Carlisle. The two were like each other’s support for AA.

    #2 I thought the relationship with Jacob and Bella was the most stable. Keep in mind that Jacob would not even turn into a werewolf if vampires weren’t around. He was constantly trying to protect her from being killed and although he pursued her entirely too much, when Edward wasn’t around, they just acted like regular friends who realized they were in love.

    #3 Good lord, absolutely not with Quentin Tarantino. If you think the books had subtle racial tension with the way the Quileute were treated, leave it to QT to add a bunch of slurs and entirely too much blood. If he was the director, the movie would look like “True Blood.” I can’t handle that show. There’s too much blood and gore and not enough plot. But to each his own because QT clearly has an audience.

    #4 Denzel Washington *laughing* Y’know, I love Peter Facinelli. I met him at the Official Twilight Convention in Chicago (I was repeatedly informed that reporters should not call it Twicon, by the way). I do think Denzel would’ve been pretty slick, but the only thing is I don’t think he could pull off the accent. Idris Elba could do it. He’s already very handsome and has the English accent, which he took advantage of in “Takers.”

    #5 Andy Samberg–never heard of him, but Emmett’s character is supposed to be wrestling bears. This guy doesn’t look the part. I agree with the professor.

    #6 I’m with the Team Emmett crew (although I’m loyal to Team Jacob). I don’t think he was a jerk at all. In “Midnight Sun,” he was constantly looking out for Edward, and he developed a sibling-like relationship with Bella.

    #7 Single fatherhood: I kinda agree. It wasn’t like the mother was out of the picture though, but I did like the father taking on the primary role. I rented “Blossom” from Netflix last week and I found myself going down memory lane and loving Nick. I can’t recall a time AFTER that television show where the father was the guy in charge of three kids.

    #8 Billy Black always seemed in-the-know. Every single time he says, “I’m down with the kids” and Charlie says “You’re the bomb,” I fall out laughing. Their slang is more up to date (although “You’re the bomb” is as old as “You go girl”) than Jacob’s, who said “They let any old riffraff in…” What teenager says that?

    • natalie wilson permalink*
      October 3, 2010 4:47 pm

      Shamontiel,

      I agree that Tarantino would have made an ENTIRELY different saga…

      However, I am a fan of True Blood. It did become very gore-heavy this last season, but I think the characters are very well developed and I like the links it makes between “vampire oppression” and oppression/prejudice in the real world.

      As to TwiCon vs Twilight Convention, they are two different things. Twi-Con happened before the conventions and was organized by fans. The “official conventions” are the money-making brain-child of Summit Entertainment…

      • October 3, 2010 5:15 pm

        I’d never given any werewolf or vampire movie a shot before I saw “Eclipse” so the only episodes I’ve seen of “True Blood” were this season and I just cannot get into that show. I do like “Vampire Diaries” though. It relies less on gore and more on strong characters. Thanks for letting me know why Twi-Con was not supposed to be used. Although the reporters were told online and in print not to use the term in articles, I just assumed it was so it wouldn’t be mixed up with Comic-Con, where “Twilight” cast members visited, but it wasn’t their specific event.

  4. October 4, 2010 2:47 am

    1) Vampires are NOT alive. They choose to breathe, but they don’t have to. This wasn’t just speculation. It was the truth. Show her the beauty of being human? That’s like me showing a lifeguard the beauty of being at the beach. She was already human so there’s no point in showing her what she already knew.

    1) Bella did though that vampires were alive. He was acting against HER wishes and desires. You are also avoiding the question he was always offering himself as a romantic partner so his only argument was not to keep her human but to keep her for himself.

    2) Bella never told Jacob he wanted to kiss him and shey only kissed once on the book, after he threatened to kill himself if she didn’t. Before that she never made any comments about kissing him and he agree to be just friends and then changed his mind and kiss her by force.

    3) In Breaking Dawn Jacob sent Charlie to a vampire Bella that could had eaten him. Thus Charlie was not part of his concern.

    4) Kiss someone without their consent? Did you read “Eclipse” or see the movie yet? She willingly kissed that man, ran her fingers through his hair and stated in the book that even though his body was close to hers, it wasn’t close enough. I’d say that’s pretty willing!

    4) I read Eclipse three times and watched the movie 7 times. In Eclipse Jacob threatened Bella to kill himself in the battle if she didn’t kissed him. That is not consent is called emotional blackmail. Did Bella liked the kiss? Yet she did. But it was not a kiss she offered of her free will and Jacob did it after he knew she was going to get married and she told him that she will disappear of his life forever. So Jacob deliberately tried to break the relationship even if after Bella accepted to get married.

    • October 4, 2010 3:09 am

      Ana,
      1) She knew good and well that vampires do not have any blood in them outside of the blood that they use by killing other animals. That’s not alive. I didn’t avoid any question. He DID state that he didn’t want her to die…repeatedly. However, in “Twilight” he didn’t really believe in the whole vampire myth. In “New Moon” when he turned into one, that’s when he found out about the “bloodsuckers.” Billy Black snitched on his son for his crush on Jacob, but he was a little more subtle about it until he found out the myths were true.

      2) Yes, he did indeed kiss her by force. She went home and told Edward on him and right after that she was right back to being friends with him and threw out even more mixed signals in “Eclipse” and “Breaking Dawn.” I don’t know about you, but if someone forces me to kiss him, I don’t hang out with them right after. I also don’t go kissing them and telling them I’m in love with them, too. In addition to that, I don’t hang out at their house or call them NONSTOP in “Eclipse” until they talk to me, even in front of my boyfriend.

      3) If Charlie was not part of his concern, he wouldn’t have told Charlie the truth about himself and broke the Quileute treaty. Bella had also had enough control to STOP hunting a human when they went out on a trip. If not Charlie, they would’ve eventually tested Bella out on the child. So if Jacob had not gone to get Charlie, who had no idea where his daughter disappeared to while the Cullen family continuously lied to him, then would you be wagging your finger at Edward, too?

      4) You copied and pasted my response so I have nothing to reply to.

      5) Emotional blackmail? If I’m not interested in someone, I don’t care what they do. I’m not kissing him. She did offer that kiss of her own free will. Jacob made a comment about how she’d have to ask him a certain question to get him to say and made a face like he knew her in answer. In turn, she asked him for a kiss and he stood there stunned, took two weary steps towards her, and then finally stood in front of her, still unsure. When they originally kissed, he whispered that she could do better than that (because she was used to kissing a vampire who wanted to kill her) and then she finally did start kissing him for real. Again, if I didn’t want to be around someone and they were constantly harassing me, I wouldn’t beg that person to stay BEFORE the kiss. I also wouldn’t nuzzle up to his fur and giggle when he kissed my face. In “New Moon,” he tried to hold her hand and she yanked it away. But she also called him nonstop, went to visit his friends, SLAPPED one of his friends because she wanted to know about “my Jacob.” Also, before she kissed him, he did sleep with her in that sleeping bag for the night and she kept mumbling about “my Jacob.” Yup, I’d say that’s pretty mixed messages.

      She came back to the tent beating herself up about it and being surprised she was in love. She also grinned at him and was SO GLAD he kept coming around in “Breaking Dawn” to the point that even Edward was uncomfortable. I’d say she did a great job of almost breaking up her own relationship.

      • October 4, 2010 7:27 am

        1) Did Bella ever considered that vampires were not alive? NO. This is yours and Jacob perception of vampires. Also dead people don’t talk, or interact or love or hate or move so they are alive for Bella and everyone that doesn’t know they are vampires.

        2) Jacob appologized and promised to never do it again. She might had been too forgiving but Jacob didn’t let go of that matter. You also forget that Jacob went looking for her when she stoped calling him and also told her that he rather be friends than nothing and that Charlie guilt trip her into seeing him: He told her that she was a bad person if she was not there for Jacob that was really depressed over she not being his friend anymore. Bella was going to leave him alone till Jacob and her father interfered and till Jacob appologized and the Cullens told her they were allowed to risk their lives to protect her. I would say that Bella though he had changed after all this gesture on her.

        3) Jacob just told Charlie the truth to keep Reneesme around longer. He was not thinking on the consequences everyone told him that he was being impulsive and he acknowledged it.

        My answer to point 4 was right under it:
        4) I read Eclipse three times and watched the movie 7 times. In Eclipse Jacob threatened Bella to kill himself in the battle if she didn’t kissed him. That is not consent is called emotional blackmail. Did Bella liked the kiss? Yet she did. But it was not a kiss she offered of her free will and Jacob did it after he knew she was going to get married and she told him that she will disappear of his life forever. So Jacob deliberately tried to break the relationship even if after Bella accepted to get married.

        5) Emotional blackmail? If I’m not interested in someone, I don’t care what they do.

        So you will let that person kill himself? Jacob made a whole play to convince her he was going to get himself killed on the fight.

        Also Jacob kissed her right away and it was then that she started to kiss him, she resisted and he even asked her to stop fighting him thus she was not into it. Also you are forgetting that at that point she wanted to be friends with him no matter what and that Jacob kept appologizing all that time and telling her he won’t cross that line again. Bella kept forgiving him but Jacob was manipulating her into thinking he will behave and be just friends, then he came back to try again. Is Bella gullible? Hell yes that doesn’t mean she was trying to cheat on Edward with Jacob. Also Bella didn’t invited Jacob to the wedding Edward did and Jacob went ( I mean Jacob was also sending mixed signals all the time by stating he was going to be her best friend and then going back to jealous rants, on Breaking Dawn Bella never called Jacob or contacted him he went to kill the cullens when he though Bella was already a vampire, is stated that Reneesme was the one causing Bella to be happy around Jacob because once she was out of her she was not longer happy around him.

        Really Jacob sent mixed signals and told her that they could be friends a lot of times Bella might be guilty to believe him but once she realized that she had feelings for the guy she cut all ties and he was the one that choose to meddle into their lives once again. He is not an innocent victim and mixed signals are no reason to break up a relationship. He can just whether keep his word and be her friend or not go back to check if she was a vampire after she left with her boyfriend, not go and tell her that he can be his friend after all, not kiss her, no apologize to her and make her feel guilty, not go to a party he was uninvited. I mean all the times Bella wanted to cut ties he kept coming back making her feel guilty if she didn’t accepted her apologizes after all the help he gave to her during New Moon. Guilt trip is not just responding to mixed signals either.

    • October 4, 2010 3:18 am

      I have another comment. If someone is deliberately trying to break up my relationship, kiss me by force, constantly telling me he loves me and is always trying to protect me, that’s my queue to leave him alone. Bella never did.

      In “Eclipse” when he disappeared, she came looking for him. Called him. Called Billy Black. Called him around Edward. Didn’t she invite him to the wedding, too? That’s one very SENSITIVE girl who is TOTALLY in love with one man, huh? o_O You say he wanted to keep her for himself but all of her actions say that she wanted to keep HIM for HERSELF, too.

      Was he wrong for forcefully kissing her? Absolutely. But she was clearly in more danger by constantly being around Jasper, James, Laurent, and the entire Volturi. A forceful kiss isn’t going to kill me. Vampires will, including red-headed ones who stalked her for four books. Jacob didn’t cause ANY of that. Edward did…along with Bella for naively following him around like a puppy dog.

      • October 4, 2010 7:36 am

        Bella was not going to call Jacob anymore till her father called into how bad of a person she was if she was not at least friends with Jacob, then when she left to visit her mom she didn’t called Jacob anymore for weeks, it was him that went to check on her to see if she was still human at school. Then he told her how sad he was and how sorry he was and that he wanted to be friends. Then when he though it was safe he told her about his feelings and kiss her by force, then again she uninvited him to the party and cut all ties then he went back to contact her apologize and then placed himself into the fight. Bella never had anyone to tell her that the best course of action was to leave Jacob alone and not take any of his apologies and false words, not even Edward. Au contraire everyone was telling her that Jacob was there for her when she was depressed so she owed him the same. Making a mess of everything. Someone said that Bella needed a girlfriend to give her a sound advice and this was a good moment for that. Sadly not even Angela told her what was the best thing to do.

        So kissing a person without their consent is justified? Even if Bella was in danger it was danger she CHOOSED to be around and was willing to endure and again she did tried to cut ties till Jacob when to guilt trip her and then blackmail her into thinking she was going to die. It was not after this that she understood that Jacob was never going to understand her relationship with Edward and cut ties.

  5. October 4, 2010 2:22 pm

    Ana, it’s easier to respond to your comments when you don’t include mine because I end up reading through my own comments. Even if you put parentheses around your responses, that would work.

    1) The day I can go without breathing, that’s when I’ll say vampires and human beings are all alive. This is just a matter of wording. We’ll agree to disagree on this one. Edward called himself a monster. He can’t breathe. A doll with batteries can walk and talk, too. Does that mean it’s alive?

    2) Jacob acted the exact same way through the last three books. He never told her she was a bad person in one book. Instead he continuously apologized for hurting her. This damsel in distress thing you have going for Bella is not convincing me. Bella knew exactly who Jacob liked. He never made that a secret. If I knew someone liked me and we couldn’t just be friends, I wouldn’t invite him to my wedding. I wouldn’t kiss him. I wouldn’t admit I’m in love with him. I wouldn’t want him around. On top of that, in the very first book, Bella flirted with him FIRST. She did it to manipulate him to give information about the Cullens and never clarified that from observation it looked like she liked him FIRST but Edward acted on it. Yes, she clarified she liked him, but she still did everything ELSE. While it might be nicer to think she did it out of guilt, if she really didn’t want him around, she just wouldn’t have him around. She had no problem blowing off Mike, Jessica, her own father and mother, etc. She just stopped talking to them. Period. Jessica tried to make her feel guilty, too. It didn’t work. Bella repeatedly reached out to Jacob in every single book when he wasn’t talking to her. She could’ve ended the ENTIRE relationship in “Eclipse.” Charlie said that Jacob was going through a rough time and she wanted him to talk to her, but Bella was already calling Jacob WAY before Charlie said anything. She just couldn’t tell Charlie WHY Jacob wouldn’t return her calls.

    3) He repeatedly pointed out that she wouldn’t be able to be around her parents. This isn’t something that’s debatable. He did that. He also talked about how she wouldn’t have to change to be with him, meaning in addition to becoming a vampire she wouldn’t have to leave her life behind. This wasn’t JUST about loving Bella. His entire family had a history of not liking vampires. I’d be annoyed, too, if somebody could just turn me into a wolf. He didn’t even want to be one and avoided being the chief. It wasn’t until the end of “Eclipse” that he admitted that he might like her even if she did turn into a vampire, but before his concern is that the werewolves’ natural reaction is to kill vampires. It’s like if your friend joins an enemy gang.

    4) Jacob was surprised that she even asked him to kiss her. Re-read how he reacted to her asking him. He was completely shocked that she did.

    5) You’re acting like Edward didn’t repeatedly say he’d commit suicide if he couldn’t have Bella. If you’re going to wag a finger at someone for committing suicide, you have to wag a finger at Edward FIRST. As far as Jacob, he was CONSTANTLY talking about how he couldn’t wait to get into this fight. I never even believed that he’d deliberately get himself killed. He wanted to kill vampires too much to do that. But Bella was asking him to stay WAY before that. It wasn’t like Bella was just waving at him, singing Chris Brown’s “Deuces.” She’d repeatedly asked him to stay way before then.

    She did not cut all ties with the guy. She came to see him right AFTER the fight. She also ran outside to see him at her own wedding, leaving her guest and her groom behind. I’m not buying into this guilt trip thing, especially considering they were both alienating each other. In “Eclipse,” he was completely done with her. She came around calling nonstop. In “New Moon,” he was ALSO done with her after he found out she was a werewolf. She came around knowing full well she was in love with Edward and repeatedly calling and stopping by. There was no guilt trip in “New Moon.” He just stopped calling and didn’t visit. She could’ve left it at that but was vain enough to believe that she was “hurting him” when in reality he was going through a whole other thing. And let’s be clear. He resurfaced in “Breaking Dawn” because the werewolves were going to kill the entire family because of Renesmee. The guy had disappeared again and Charlie put up posters. He’d even attempted to meet another woman and repeatedly tried to like someone else. The only time he ever actually did try to make her feel guilty was at the fight, but Edward talked about how he was going to kill himself far more. So…is somehow Edward’s threat of suicide WHICH HE ACTUALLY TRIED TO CARRY OUT even when Jacob never did somehow cuter?

    6) Jacob went to her school to tell her about Victoria, not to tell her how bad he was. When he did come, she asked him why hadn’t he called her. He said, “I have nothing to say,” turned around and WALKED AWAY. She said she had plenty to say to him…and followed him.

    7) Temporarily not speaking to someone is not the same as cutting ties. Yes, Jacob did call to apologize for saying he’d rather her be dead than a vampire and Edward got on the phone to ask about the scent in Bella’s room. If Edward has not told Jacob about the scent, Jacob wouldn’t have even known anything about the fight. Yeah, he did crash that party, but Bella also crashed his house.

    You’re really relying on that forceful kiss for your argument, but the fact remains she continuously kept going back to him. He showed up to the party and she was mad. That is true. But there was never a moment when she said she didn’t want to speak to him again. She’d just walk away. If I have an argument with someone and walk away, that doesn’t mean, “I never want to speak to you again in life. I don’t want to be around you. We can’t be friends.” It just means that I’m mad at you for now. Jacob actually did cut ties with Bella twice, and she came chasing after him both times.

    • October 4, 2010 6:10 pm

      1) I’m not factoring YOUR idea or Jacob’s idea of alive. Bella though that Edward was alive and wanted the live Edward has. Given that it was her decisions Jacob’s opinion of vampiric life was not the right one. It was her life to change even if he didn’t though it was worth it, he should had respected that.

      2) Bella never had anyone tell her that Jessica had a rough time and that she needed to talk to her, Bella didn’t invited Jacob to the wedding Edward did, and Jacob did told her various times that he rather be friends than nothing. You should re read. Bella was giving up on calling Jacob when Charlie told her.

      3) Even if a friend joined an enemy gang I would still try to convince them as friend not trying to become replacement boyfriend.

      4) You should reread that scene Jacob was totally pushing for her to ask for the kiss or just go out and kill himself on the fight and when Bella resisted the kiss he didn’t stopped he continued pushing himself on her.

      5) You’re acting like Edward didn’t repeatedly say he’d commit suicide if he couldn’t have Bella. If you’re going to wag a finger at someone for committing suicide, you have to wag a finger at Edward FIRST.

      (Clarification Edward never threatened suicide if he couldn’t had Bella, he said that he will kill himself if Bella died, he always told her that if she wanted someone else he would step out, not kill himself over it. As long as she was alive and happy he wouldn’t kill himself. No to mention that Jacob was just using Bella’s guilt he never planned on killing himself.)

      She told her she was concerned about his security but she never asked him to stay till he started with the suicide on the fight, I think you are confusing the book with the movie. In the movie it looks like rash choice but on the books Jacob pushed the issue to force Bella to ask for the kiss.

      (She did not cut all ties with the guy. She came to see him right AFTER the fight. She also ran outside to see him at her own wedding, leaving her guest and her groom behind).

      I meant after she found that Jacob won’t give up. Also Edward took her outside when Jacob showed up. The timeline shows that Bella did cut all ties to Jacob after they talked that she will marry Edward. Jacob went to the wedding and she was happy to see him, but she also never contacted him again. Jacob showed up at the Cullen’s house after the wedding to kill them because he though that she was a vampire already.

      In Eclipse she stoped when she went to Florida if he was done why was he going to her school?

      New Moon is diferent given that Edward was not on the picture, there is no problem trying to date a single girl of course it was when she went to save Edward and they were back together that he started to break them up. Jacob tried to interfere again by making Charlie ground her to keep her from Edward, thus again it was not about a vampire thing it was to break her relationship. Also is different to want to die because the person you love died to manipulate a person to give you something and if they don’t they will have your death into their conscience.

      6) If Jacob was done with Bella why going to her school. He didn’t knew the Cullens had not told Bella about Victoria he found out right there so he was there just to check he was human, like Edward said. Also you are confusing the movie with the book.

      7) What make you think she was going to keep talking to him then? She stopped calling him and when she did Jacob came back to her life willingly and he did told her they could be friends it was later that he admitted that he was going to fight for her and kissed her against her will.

      (You’re really relying on that forceful kiss for your argument, but the fact remains she continuously kept going back to him. He showed up to the party and she was mad. That is true. But there was never a moment when she said she didn’t want to speak to him again. She’d just walk away. If I have an argument with someone and walk away, that doesn’t mean, “I never want to speak to you again in life. I don’t want to be around you. We can’t be friends.” It just means that I’m mad at you for now. Jacob actually did cut ties with Bella twice, and she came chasing after him both times.)

      I think you are confusing Bella with yourself. Had you seen Bella ever telling anyone something like that? I mean Mike also liked her and she never told him to never see her again, she accepted going to the movies with him, took a job to work with him and even invited him to her wedding knowing full well he liked her but she always tried to stay friends with him. Bella doesn’t down right tell people off, and Jessica stoped talking to her because she wanted to, not because Bella herself told her off, also you are contradicting yourself if Bella stoping to talk people is a clear sign that she is not interested on them she stopping to talk to Jacob should be a clear message to him over the same issue, why is okay for him to try and seek her out after she does that? I mean if I kissed someone by force (as if) and that person punched me I would had think that is a clear indication that they don’t want me around too.

  6. October 4, 2010 2:37 pm

    1. Typo: I meant after he found out “he” was a werewolf, not “she.”

    2. “I would say that Bella though he had changed after all this gesture on her.” (Side note: “though” should be “thought.”) Why would you think Bella thought he’d changed? Nothing about him ever stated he changed. He never said he didn’t like her anymore. Edward was well aware that he still liked her. You do have a point about Edward inviting Jacob to the wedding, but that makes him look dumb. If I know another guy is constantly trying to go after my girlfriend, I don’t hand him a wedding invitation. Bella didn’t bat an eye to go outside to see Jacob and kept looking for him at the wedding. If Bella had treated Jacob the way she treated every single person at her school and her own parents, Jacob could’ve never come around. Jacob said in “Breaking Dawn” that it would be easier to not come around if she wasn’t always so happy to see him. Bella surely didn’t feel guilty about putting Jessica in danger or not talking to the people at her school. She was consistently rude to Charlie. This wasn’t some weak teenager who wanted everybody to be her friend. She gave less than a darn about anybody but Edward, Alice, Carlisle, Esme and Jacob.

    3. Her feelings about Jacob did change though, at the exact same time that his feelings changed about her. Instead he decided he was in love with Renesmee and never paid anymore attention to her other than keeping the vampire child safe. Then she manipulated him again by convincing him she wanted to go see her father and took off to see the guy with the fake IDs. Bella knew how to manipulate. She did it get Edward to stay in the tent. She did it to TRY to get Jacob to stay by the tent, even though he STILL wanted to fight and she knew that. She did it to her father to make sure he didn’t move her to Florida. She did it to Jessica and Angela to get to the bookstore.

    • October 4, 2010 6:29 pm

      1) Jacob did said that he would never kissed her again without her consent and the offered her gang to fight with the vampires, he never stated that he will try to win her out again but that defending the city from vampires was his job along with the other Quilletes.
      And you are again confusing your ideas with the text. Bella never looked for Jacob at the wedding till he showed up, she never though of him during the honeymoon neither even remembered he was there after she woke up a vampire. Also Bella did felt guilty to ignore people when she was depressed and that is why she went to the movies with mike and tried to get a group to go with Jessica Angela and Ben, Jessica was understandably mad at her but Ben and Angela understood that Bella was depressed and kept talking to her, that is why we got Bella helping Angela with the invitations and she also got them tickets for the concert to make sure they were out of Forks during the fight, Alice also invited the whole group of friends to the graduation party because of Bella. Bella never stopped talked to anyone till after the wedding. For obvious reasons. Bella did had issues with Charlie but she also obeyed him when he grounded her even though was not a minor anymore and could had just moved out, but she wanted to spent as much time as possible with her dad before the change, she also came up with a plan to keep Charlie on her life even after her transformation. I think again you should re read and highlights all the times that Bella interacted with the characters and see what actions she actually did.

      3) I think her feelings about Jacob changed the moment she said to Edward that she would never shed another tear for Jacob Black and she did. She didn’t looked for him at the wedding, she never though about him on the honeymoon, she never tried to contact him again and when Reneesme was born she tried to kill him for naming her Nessie…
      I agree that Bella knew how to manipulate Edward and did, but how can you call manipulation to having Jacob tag along with her and Reneesme? Jacob was always happiest when she was around the girl? Also you are confusing Twilight movie with the book, Bella wanted to hang around the girls and was happy till Jessica told her that Tyler was telling everyone he was going to take her to prom. That is when she felt ill and then decided to get the books. She was totally capable of going to Port Angeles to get the books by herself she was interested on the estrogen rush of going to a night’s girls out. Re read the book so you can see it.

      Of course this being said I realize that everyone has a different Twilight book on their brains, so if you want to agree to disagree you can.

      • October 4, 2010 6:41 pm

        1) Bella stopped talking to EVERYBODY when Edward left. She was screaming, crying, being delusional, and just about killing herself. She had stopped talking to them for three months. When Mike asked her out to a movie, she went and asked Jacob to come along. Y’know, the same Jacob that she knew liked her and who she flirted with in “Twilight.” She went shopping with Jessica in “New Moon” solely so her father wouldn’t make her move to Florida, again, manipulation.

        2) I just read “Breaking Dawn” not too long ago. Her plan was flawed with Charlie. The Cullen Family was lying to him nonstop, but honestly, I couldn’t buy into that part because a police officer is just not going to be this trusting of a family when his daughter is on the line so that entire Charlie situation was unrealistic to me.

        3) It’s “thought,” not “though.” She did look for him at the wedding, noticed he wasn’t there, and went on about her wedding. Yes, she didn’t think of him during the honeymoon. Why would she? He definitely wouldn’t have been there, especially after she (in a very tacky manner) told him she wanted a real honeymoon knowing full well her safety was against her. She didn’t care for the name “Nessie,” but she wanted to kill him for imprinting on her daughter, not the name so much.

        4) Bella wanted to go out of town to get the books regardless. She’d already researched vampires and planned to go get the books anyway. Interested in a girls’ night out? In not ONE book did she say she was interested in a girls’ night out. She didn’t even care for Jessica. She liked Angela because Angela never asked too many questions, but that was where it ended. How about YOU re-read the book? *shaking my head*

        We’re definitely going to agree to disagree. I honestly think instead of stating I’ve confused Bella with myself, it might be you. You didn’t care for Jacob so YOU wanted him to get out of the story, not Bella. You seem to believe that Bella is this super innocent, naive, forgiving person when in reality she was manipulative, rude and didn’t want to face conflict. All of the problems she had in these books were her own.

        With that said, I honestly think Jacob was WAY too good for her. I didn’t think she deserved him. I think Edward was too good for her, too. By the time I got to “Eclipse,” all I kept thinking was, “No wonder no one dated you before you came to Forks.”

        All righty, agree to disagree. TEAM JACOB!

  7. October 4, 2010 6:29 pm

    1) I wouldn’t want a friend who would respect me wanting to die. By the way, she never said she thought they were alive in any book. Vampires? Yes. Alive? No.

    2) No, YOU might want to re-read. Bella hadn’t given up on contacting Jacob. She just knew he wasn’t answering her calls and since she was still on punishment, she couldn’t physically make him talk to her. When he showed up to the school, she demanded to know why he didn’t call her back. Charlie did say he’d let her off punishment if she would hang out with Jacob. This is true. But Charlie also didn’t know about vampires and werewolves and knew that Bella stopped screaming in her sleep and seemed to be happier around Jacob. That’s just a father looking out for his kid.

    3) But this was bigger than being a replacement boyfriend. I don’t know how much you know about gangs, but once gangs are on opposing sides, it’s next to impossible to continue to get along because of your surroundings. He wanted her to stay human regardless.

    4) I just read it yesterday. YOU might want to re-read it. If he was “pushing” for her to ask, he wouldn’t have had the surprised expression on his face and hesitantly stepped toward her twice before actually doing so. Bella also admitted that he misread HER grabbing his hair as passion instead of resistance. That was physical miscommunication, not him forcing her to kiss him a second time, and then when she actually did move her mouth and start kissing him back the way she would have with a human being (she mentioned that she’d never been able to let go in a kiss before because of Edward being a vampire) she was doing the same thing, grabbing his hair, his shoulder, pressing her body into him. On top of that, he leaned in to kiss her another time and she let him…again.

    5) Bella did ask him to stay before the kiss. She said it flippantly though because she knew he wouldn’t. He stated flat out that he would never miss out on a good fight.

    You have some of my comments in parentheses and then some of yours so again, I’m reading this line for line. Will you please put only YOUR comments in parentheses so I can tell what I’m responding to?

    I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye about this guilt trip. I 100% do not agree with you about Bella continuously hanging out with Jacob out of guilt. She knew he loved her the whole time. He never changed his personality. She knew he wouldn’t. And she still went after him. When Mike and (Tyler?) liked her, she cut them both off completely, although Mike was rather persistent, too. If Bella wanted to get rid of Jacob, she could have. The fact remains that she didn’t nor did she ever really want him to leave. Even when he would leave in “Breaking Dawn,” she wanted to know when he was coming back. Bella was not naive enough to think Jacob’s feelings would EVER change.

    6) In the book, he went to her school to tell her about Victoria, who’d resurfaced while they were gone. I just re-read that chapter.

    7) Confusing Bella with myself? I’m sorry, have we met? If we had, this four-book series would’ve been a pamphlet. I’d have dated Jacob and ignored Edward. How about we keep the conversation about the books and not get personal, okay? Thanks. Bella was REPEATEDLY rude to her father, telling him to watch what he said, mind his own business, threatening to move out, demanding he put up with Edward, slamming doors in his face, making malicious comments to him before he ran away, this wasn’t this super innocent girl who was just gushy about everybody.

    8) You are right about her punching him to let him know she didn’t want to be kissed. He then said he’d never kiss her again unless she asked. And she did ask and consented…to his amazement. Again, he was shocked she did ask.

    We can debate these points back and forth, but it looks like we’ll never agree so I’ll just sum this up as agree to disagree. The debate was interesting, minus the part about confusing me with Bella, which I find incredibly insulting considering I didn’t like her character at all and she is nothing like me. Be easy on comparing people. Make sure you can stick to topic matter.

    • October 4, 2010 7:38 pm

      I didn’t meant you were like Bella but you are confusing what would you do on her place with what she did on her place and her diferent circumstances, meaning that her actions were different that what you would do, but is because she is a different person. Not because she was wrong. She didn’t cut Mike or Tyler, Tyler started dating Lauren but Mike was always around and was friends with her even after Edward showed up back and went to her wedding, Bella doesn’t think that a guy liking forbids to be friends with unless she likes them back and the moment she realized that she liked Jacob she cut all ties and never call him again. Jacob showed up at her house because he wanted blood.

      The scene with the kiss you are editing the part when he told Bella to “stop fighting” so he knew she was fighting against it and not kissing him by desire but because he forced her to ask. I never said she didn’t enjoyed the kiss after a while, but it took a while and a moment that Jacob could had just stopped but instead he never let her go till she started to get into it. Again I’m saying that Jacob should had never come to the point to force himself to kiss her when she said she wanted to be friends only all the time and when she clearly took Edward back. No matter how he interpreted her behavior she never told him that she wanted more than a friendship with him.

      • October 4, 2010 7:49 pm

        Ana, I just sold the book today so I don’t have it anymore. I can’t quote from the book, but I do remember him saying something to the effect of “C’mon Bella, you can do better than that” and her realizing she could really get into this kiss because she was kissing a human being. That’s when I realized her hesitancy was not just about kissing Jacob but about being careful about kissing because it was borderline painful for Edward to kiss her without killing her. He didn’t FORCE her to ask. Bella wasn’t all that sympathetic about Edward telling Tyler Bella wouldn’t go to prom with him or with Mike when she let him know he didn’t have a shot. She treated Jacob differently because he WAS different to her. He didn’t move her mouth to ask. I wish I’d have waited another day to mail the book so I could quote from it, but I distinctly remember him being completely surprised she asked and tiptoeing up to her.

        As far as contacting him when they got married, she couldn’t have contacted him if he tried. Nobody knew where he went, including Billy Black. Charlie posted missing person pictures all over town. It wasn’t like Bella chose to just not talk to Jacob. Jacob CHOSE not to talk to anybody. When he found out she was a vampire, he surely did come back for blood…and then he didn’t proceed. Why? Because Bella was STILL someone he loved even through all that protesting of being a vampire. He went against his own pack to protect not just her but the whole family and he was protective of Carlisle, too, hoping he’d never have to fight the Cullen leader.

        Protective? Yes. Persistent? Yes. Annoying? Absolutely. But I still thought both Jacob and Edward could’ve done better. Every single dramatic experience that happened in all of the books was Bella’s fault, especially the Volturi coming back into town because she made the FORCED decision and ultimatum with Edward to have sex after the wedding.

        Now if we really want to get into someone forcing someone to do something, that would be Bella who constantly pestered Edward about being a vampire, was more vain than Rosalie about looking beautiful and never getting older, put the entire Cullen family in danger AND was almost responsible for Edward killing himself because of her cliff diving expedition that Rosalie told him about from Alice’s vision. It’s interesting to me that you talk about Jacob forcing someone to do something that she willingly asked him to do, but you seem to look over all the things that Bella forced other people to do.

  8. October 4, 2010 6:46 pm

    Sorry, one quick thing, she did ACT like she wanted a girls’ night out in order to get closer to the bookstore in that same neighborhood. The second time she stated it was so she didn’t have to move Florida. She used Angela and Jessica for convenience. She was not their friends. Then again, she wasn’t much of a friend to anybody but Edward and Alice. I wish Jacob would’ve just gone after the lady who came to his car and called it a day. I said that in a review, too. I REALLY wanted him to end up with Leah. I thought Leah had a great heart, and I’m incredibly disappointed that Stephenie Meyer didn’t let us in on somebody FINALLY telling Bella off. Now if you want to talk about someone I could relate to and was probably the closest in character to, it would’ve hands down been Leah. She was one of the few people that was not impressed by Bella and who Bella knew NOT to cross. I *heart* that female werewolf!

    • October 4, 2010 7:56 pm

      Nope you are wrong. She said that on Chapter 8: Port Angeles page 152″
      “It had been a while since I’ had a girls night out, and the estrogen rush was invigorating.” and then proceeded to cheerfully narrate the things they did like listen to music, talk about boys, she was happy that Mike and her went out and all that…. Re read that chapter things start to get gloomy when Jessica mentions Tyler and she was happy to go to dinner after she found her book, but it was something she did as part of the trip, the trip was not an excuse.

      I adore Leah as well, you can love both characters without conflict and I do agree that I think Leah and Jacob would had made a good couple and I still do.

      • October 4, 2010 8:08 pm

        I sold “Breaking Dawn” and “Eclipse,” but I did keep the first two so I looked in “Twilight” first. Check my second message. I did correct my statement about her acting like she wanted a girls’ night out. I was wrong about that one because she did state “It would be nice to get out of town with some girlfriends,” although she wasn’t thrilled about Lauren. But she also stated, “I told them I would meet them at the restaurant in an hour — I wanted to look for a bookstore.” Bella went shopping with at least a 75% intention on finding that bookstore. She was going to go look for the bookstore regardless. The shopping trip was just a bonus to her plan. On page 150, she stated, “The Port Angeles scheme was back on again for tonight and made all the more attractive by the fact that Lauren had other obligations.” Do you call girls’ night out “schemes”? I don’t.

        Another reason she wanted to go was so she could stop glancing over her shoulder looking for Edward. (page 150)

  9. October 4, 2010 8:14 pm

    1) That is called depression. People can’t go on in normal behavior when they are depressed if not it wouldn’t be a very serious disease.

    2) Ok.

    3) You need to reread Breaking Dawn. Edward was the one that remind him of Jacob also if Bella loved Jacob too why wouldn’t she think about him at all times like she does with Edward? What kind of love is that?

    4) See the chapter quote on the other post.

    We are inside Bella’s head all the time. Did she say that she was going to see Jacob to make out with him or because she felt he was unhappy because of her? If you can quote all the instances she was trying to make him suffer on purpose then of course she will come across as manipulative. I like all the characters on the books so its not about Bella is about the fact that all the times she mentions Jacob she mentions how guilty she feels, and how when she mentions Edward all she mentions is her joy and need to be around him. Also the text has Jacob telling Bella that he can be friends and then changing his mind, have him telling her to her face that if she wants to save his life she has to kiss him. That is the text in question. You might be Team Jacob but you can be Team Jacob without omitting his actions or paint him as a naive innocent guy that did nothing wrong or did it because of Bella.

  10. October 4, 2010 8:19 pm

    Okay.

  11. October 4, 2010 8:22 pm

    1) Being depressed and suffering from depression aren’t always the same. There was never any medical condition discussed. You’re stretching that part out a bit.

    2) Why wouldn’t Bella think about Jacob too? She did. Constantly. Through all of the books. I read “Breaking Dawn.” I didn’t like that book at all. I thought Bella was annoying in “Eclipse,” which was why I sold it. But I flat out was repulsed by her in “Breaking Dawn.” But back to the thinking part, I didn’t know there was a certain percentage of thinking you had to do for a person in order to love them. What scientific study did you find that from? o_O

    3) I never painted him as a naive, innocent guy. Where did you read that? I repeatedly said on Amazon.com reviews and in this forum that he could do better. I did admit he was persistent. I also wanted him to knock it off. That was another reason I didn’t like “Breaking Dawn.” I just wanted to shake him and say, “LEAVE THAT GOOFY GIRL ALONE!” I didn’t omit any of his actions. I never denied that he forced her to kiss him the FIRST time, but I stand very strong on him NOT forcing her to kiss him the second time. She asked him. Period. This isn’t debatable. He was surprised and hesitant. She stood there and let him kiss her, got into it, kissed him back, and THEN kissed him again and whispered something about how that should’ve been her first kiss. That whole feeling guilty deal was lame to me. Feeling guilty was from her being manipulative.

    Although I am Team Jacob, I like Edward. I LOVE Jacob though. And I’m all about Leah! Carlisle, too. Actually I liked everybody in the books except for Bella. I even got where Victoria was coming from. They killed her man, she wanted revenge. But the more stunts Bella pulled, the more I was rooting for Victoria’s newborns to just hurry up and kill her so we could get past that.

    • October 4, 2010 8:27 pm

      Sorry, I meant HE whispered to her about how that should’ve been their first kiss. Then SHE asked him if he’d stay AGAIN and he said something like “Don’t worry, I’ll be back.” Again, mixed messages. “Oh, I totally just want to be friends but I got into that kiss and I want you to stay by the tent and not fight but I SO don’t like you!” Even Edward said in “Breaking Dawn” he was starting to question the relationship because Bella seemed so excited to see him. What was beyond me was why Edward kept dealing with it. I thought she was not only manipulative to Jacob but just flat out disrespectful to Edward.

      • October 4, 2010 9:06 pm

        1) I don’t follow. Bella was not ignoring people un purpose she was in real emotional pain or you think she had night terrors at will?

        2) Well compare all the thinking, longing and describing Edward with Jacob. Its just the way she express herself. Edward never leaves her mind, not even sleeping.

        3) Read the quote about how he got her into kissing him. Like I said she didn’t asked for the kiss on a moment of emotion she was tricked into it. I never denied that she enjoyed it, but it was not look she asked for it out of desire to kiss him, if Jacob wouldn’t had said nothing to her, she wouldn’t had kissed him at all.

  12. October 4, 2010 8:53 pm

    Ana, I just sold the book today so I don’t have it anymore. I can’t quote from the book, but I do remember him saying something to the effect of “C’mon Bella, you can do better than that” and her realizing she could really get into this kiss because she was kissing a human being. That’s when I realized her hesitancy was not just about kissing Jacob but about being careful about kissing because it was borderline painful for Edward to kiss her without killing her. He didn’t FORCE her to ask.

    Okay quote from Eclipse:

    “I knew he would take advantage of the situation. I expected it. I held very still my eyes closed, my fingers curled into fists at my sides- as his hands caught my face and his lips found mine with an eagerness that was not far from violence.
    I could feel his anger as his mouth discovered my passive resistance. One hand moved to the nape of my neck, twisting into a fist around the roots of my hair. The other hand grabbed roughly at my shoulder, shaking me, then dragging me to him. His hand continued down my arm, finding my wrist and pulling my arm up around his neck. I left it there, my hand still tightly balled up, unsure how far I could go in my desperation to keep him alive. All the while his lips, disconcertingly soft and warm, tried to force a response out of mine.
    As soon as he was sure I wouldn’t drop my arm, he freed my wrist, his hand feeling its way down my waist. His burning hand found the skin at the small of my back, and he yanked me forward, bowing my body against his.
    His lips gave up on mine for a moment, but I knew he was nowhere close to finished. His mouth followed the line of my jaw, and the explored the length of my neck. He freed my hair, reaching for my other arm to draw it around his neck like the first.
    Then both of his arms wre constricted around my waist, and his lips found my ear.
    “You can do better than this, Bella,” he whispered huskily. “You’re overthinking it.”
    I shivered as I felt his teeth graze my earlobe.
    “That’s right,” he murmured. “For once, just let yourself feel what you feel.”
    I shook my head mechanically until one of his hands wound back into my hair and stopped me.
    His voice turned acidic. [[“Are you sure you want me to come back? Or did you really want me to die?”]]

    So he did forced her to kiss her back by claiming he will kill himself.

    (Bella wasn’t all that sympathetic about Edward telling Tyler Bella wouldn’t go to prom with him or with Mike when she let him know he didn’t have a shot.)

    Well Edward took care of Tyler but can you remember what she told Mike when he asked her out? Jessica wouldn’t like it. That was all she never told him he had no chance with her neither that he was disgusting she just brought Jessica into the equation I would say this is a very sympathetic way to let a person out.

    (She treated Jacob differently because he WAS different to her. He didn’t move her mouth to ask. I wish I’d have waited another day to mail the book so I could quote from it, but I distinctly remember him being completely surprised she asked and tiptoeing up to her.)

    See quote above.

    (As far as contacting him when they got married, she couldn’t have contacted him if he tried. Nobody knew where he went, including Billy Black. Charlie posted missing person pictures all over town. It wasn’t like Bella chose to just not talk to Jacob. Jacob CHOSE not to talk to anybody. )

    The question is that she did cutted ties and didn’t tried to talk to him again, you were stating that she kept trying even after she got married.

    (When he found out she was a vampire, he surely did come back for blood…and then he didn’t proceed. Why? Because Bella was STILL someone he loved even through all that protesting of being a vampire. He went against his own pack to protect not just her but the whole family and he was protective of Carlisle, too, hoping he’d never have to fight the Cullen leader.)

    We are talking about Bella forcing Jacob to be on her life against his better wishes. In that instance Jacob had the chance to keep himself away and not see Bella ever again and yet he didn’t.

    (Protective? Yes. Persistent? Yes. Annoying? Absolutely. But I still thought both Jacob and Edward could’ve done better. Every single dramatic experience that happened in all of the books was Bella’s fault, especially the Volturi coming back into town because she made the FORCED decision and ultimatum with Edward to have sex after the wedding.)

    I disagree with this too. Edward wanted marriage and Bella wanted sex before turning they both got what they wanted. Also the Volturi already wanted to take the Cullens after Aro found out about Alice and Edward’s power and wanted on their collection. The only reason the army managed to grow so much was because the Volturi were waiting for it to destroy the Cullen coven. Bella had nothing to do with it. Bella staying human or vampire was irrelevant to Aro’s envy of the Cullens. In Eclipse Jane makes that pretty clear.

    (Now if we really want to get into someone forcing someone to do something, that would be Bella who constantly pestered Edward about being a vampire, was more vain than Rosalie about looking beautiful and never getting older, put the entire Cullen family in danger AND was almost responsible for Edward killing himself because of her cliff diving expedition that Rosalie told him about from Alice’s vision. It’s interesting to me that you talk about Jacob forcing someone to do something that she willingly asked him to do, but you seem to look over all the things that Bella forced other people to do.)

    You can’t blame Bella for Edward killing himself because Bella didn’t knew Alice was watching out for her and it will think that she jumped to her death. She was cliff diving for her own reasons.

    The whole vampire conundrum was something that she requested but in the end it was what Alice, Emmet, Esme, Jasper and Carlisle wanted to. The only people opposed to her changing were Rosalie and Edward but the family did loved Bella and wanted her part of her coven. That is why she asked all of them to vote and they did it on her favor. I mean Bella had selfish reasons to be with Edward and becoming a vampire, but it was not something he did out the consent of people that she cared about and cared about her, neither she forced them because Carlisle agreed to do it himself, the wedding was the condition to get Edward to do it, but the Cullens were in majority happy to have her part of them.

  13. October 4, 2010 9:14 pm

    Ana,

    1. Interesting that you would quote a book excerpt AFTER the part when he was surprised. It’s not fair to not mention the part I’ve been talking about the entire time about him stepping up to her hesitantly and being shocked that SHE asked HIM for a kiss. However, I’ll still go through it point for point: the pulling was natural strength, much like Edward had the strength to grab her hands like she was in handcuffs and slam her against a (shelf?) when Jasper was coming near her, in addition to knocking her out when she was going to be hit by Tyler’s van. The burning? The guy is over 100 degrees warm. That is expected as Edward is very cold and she always had to wrap herself in a blanket to cuddle, in addition to staying away from him in the tent.

    2. I never stated he didn’t say he would go off to die. As melodramatic as it was though, what I said was I didn’t believe him. He wanted to fight vampires entirely too much. He’d told her before and after the kiss that he wouldn’t give up on a good fight. She didn’t force his mouth to move. She also put the Cullen family in danger if the newborns were somehow stronger by lying and saying she couldn’t be away from Edward. Manipulation at its best.

    3. She used Jessica as an excuse to not turn him down. She wasn’t interested in him and Jessica was a way to back out. That’s not sympathetic. That’s convenient.

    4. I stand by what I said. When he came back into town, she came outside to talk to him at the wedding and danced with him several times. After she was married, she wanted him around after she was pregnant and kept asking when he’d be back. Jacob left. There was no way to contact him. But as soon as he came back, she was right back to asking about him and wanting him around. Even Edward acknowledged that.

    5. After he’d decided not to kill her or the Cullen family for breaking the treaty, which they did, he HAD to come back because Sam was still the leader and planned to kill them all.

    6. Edward NEVER wanted sex unless Bella was a vampire. He repeatedly hesitated and was extremely frustrated that he did exactly what he thought he’d do, left marks all over her. We don’t know how the water situation worked out, but he had to go to such lengths to make sure it was warm enough for her to even be intimate. Even after the first time, he spent even more nights trying to distract her so they wouldn’t have to do it again. Ever met a guy who tried to dodge sex from his new bride? Yeah, me neither.

    7. Bella had EVERYTHING to do with why the newborns were even created. Bella had no business being at the baseball game. James wanted her. James died because of Bella. Then, Laurent was killed by werewolves because of Bella. Then Victoria wanted her killed, started the newborns and then Jane found out about it. Do you know how OLD Carlisle, Edward and Alice were? If Aro really wanted them that bad, he’d have gotten them a century ago. The situation with James sped that up, but Bella making the choice to have that baby was beyond stupid. The story about vampire babies being a danger to human beings was already known and she still wanted to have a kid that was breaking her ribs. That was Bella’s fault. I didn’t feel sorry for her at all.

    8. Cliff diving for her own reasons? She was cliff diving because she was so pathetic to see Edward again that she’d risk her own life, much like the motorcycle expedition that she talked Jacob into doing. What kind of friend is that? Let’s fix up these bikes for free labor, and I’ll rationalize it by paying for parts and doing homework just so I can see Edward. Wow, that’s not the types of friends I want.

    Carlisle did NOT want Bella to become a vampire. He said “yes” because Edward stated he would not live without Bella. He knew he’d lose his son so he chose “yes.” Alice said Edward not turning Bella into a vampire was getting ridiculous because of all of the drama that came with her being a human. That vote came AFTER the situation with James and them having to leave the state and plot on an escape plan, not before. That was a survival mechanism, not daydreaming wishes to make Bella be one of the gang. The Cullens were happy to have her be a part of them WITHOUT being a vampire.

  14. October 4, 2010 9:27 pm

    1) I don’t think she had night terrors at will, but I think she could’ve avoided all that had she stayed away from Edward in the first place. She put herself in that position by wanting to play tough girl and act like it’s perfectly normal to date a vampire. Emotional plan? Personally I just think it was melodramatic. Then again, I’ve never fallen to pieces over anyone for three months. I honestly think that was part of the reason she kept encouraging Jacob to come back and wanting him around. She had to know how hard it is to be away from someone you love THAT much. Fortunately Jacob wasn’t sitting around feeling miserable, screaming and moping around. But it didn’t take much for her to mope around. Her whole day was ruined when the guy didn’t show up for class.

    2. If I think about somebody robbing me, does that mean I love the person who robbed me? Nope, it just means they’re on my mind. Okay, less dramatic analogy. If I think about an ex who mistreated me, does that mean I still want him in my life? No, it just means he’s on my mind. People can be on your mind whether you want them to or not. That doesn’t mean love. That just means that person is on your mind.

    3. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Okay, I’m done. We are never going to get anywhere further. I can debate all day long if I feel like there’s going to come a time when we’ll be able to meet in the middle. You and I are not going to meet in the middle. She was not tricked. He did not expect her to ask. You conveniently left out the bewildered look on his face and the hesitant steps. You also conveniently left out the THIRD kiss they shared with no aggression whatsoever. She wasn’t tricked any of those times. She tricked Edward into staying in the tent with her. She did a whole lot more tricking than she did being “tricked.” SHE asked him to kiss her. I stand by what I’ve been saying this whole time. If somebody is that abusive to me and tricking me into things I don’t want to do, I don’t even WANT to be their friend. That wasn’t pity. That was self-gratification.

    Now I really will bring this to a close. We are not going to agree. Ever. The debate was interesting though.

  15. October 4, 2010 9:37 pm

    (1. Interesting that you would quote a book excerpt AFTER the part when he was surprised. It’s not fair to not mention the part I’ve been talking about the entire time about him stepping up to her hesitantly and being shocked that SHE asked HIM for a kiss.)

    I don’t understand if he used the same phrase to get her to enjoy the kiss why do you think he did that if she was willingly already kissing him?

    (However, I’ll still go through it point for point: the pulling was natural strength, much like Edward had the strength to grab her hands like she was in handcuffs and slam her against a (shelf?) when Jasper was coming near her, in addition to knocking her out when she was going to be hit by Tyler’s van. The burning? The guy is over 100 degrees warm. That is expected as Edward is very cold and she always had to wrap herself in a blanket to cuddle, in addition to staying away from him in the tent.)

    I don’t follow this what this description for?

    (2. I never stated he didn’t say he would go off to die. As melodramatic as it was though, what I said was I didn’t believe him. He wanted to fight vampires entirely too much. He’d told her before and after the kiss that he wouldn’t give up on a good fight. She didn’t force his mouth to move.)

    Again I was asking about him using the going off to die to force her to ask for the kiss. I always acknowledged that after the fact she did enjoyed it, but she never asked for it without Jacob pulling a trick. That is not consent. Consent would had been for Bella to ask for the kiss without any reason than she wanted it.

    (She also put the Cullen family in danger if the newborns were somehow stronger by lying and saying she couldn’t be away from Edward. Manipulation at its best.)

    I agree with that.

    (3. She used Jessica as an excuse to not turn him down. She wasn’t interested in him and Jessica was a way to back out. That’s not sympathetic. That’s convenient.)

    And yet she never mistreating Mike or told him to go of her life, she just let him go politely. Even if it was convenient the point you made is that she was clear to Mike about she never liking him but she didn’t she just point him out to another direction.

    (I stand by what I said. When he came back into town, she came outside to talk to him at the wedding and danced with him several times. After she was married, she wanted him around after she was pregnant and kept asking when he’d be back. Jacob left. There was no way to contact him. But as soon as he came back, she was right back to asking about him and wanting him around. Even Edward acknowledged that.)

    And the point was that you said that Jacob did the right thing and stopped contacting her altogether and it was her that continued to chase her around. I just showed to you that Jacob also went looking after Bella at her own wedding and also after the honeymoon for no good reason given the talk they had on Eclipse and the fact that she was already married.

    ( After he’d decided not to kill her or the Cullen family for breaking the treaty, which they did, he HAD to come back because Sam was still the leader and planned to kill them all.)

    No the first part of Jacob was him going against Sam to kill the Cullens because they broke the treaty, Sam though that it was not necessary because Bella did it on her own free ad they were leaving the cullens be Jacob escaped because he wanted blood.

    (6. Edward NEVER wanted sex unless Bella was a vampire. He repeatedly hesitated and was extremely frustrated that he did exactly what he thought he’d do, left marks all over her. We don’t know how the water situation worked out, but he had to go to such lengths to make sure it was warm enough for her to even be intimate. Even after the first time, he spent even more nights trying to distract her so they wouldn’t have to do it again. Ever met a guy who tried to dodge sex from his new bride? Yeah, me neither.)

    Actually I know a couple of guys that do that. Specially if the bride has any issues like an injure or something. I never denied that Bella wanting to have sex before marriage was selfish on her part.

    (7. Bella had EVERYTHING to do with why the newborns were even created. Bella had no business being at the baseball game.)

    The cullens took Bella to the baseball game. She didn’t showed up unexpected.

    (James wanted her. James died because of Bella.)

    James was a bad guy and that he killed inocent people before and was going to kill Alice for the same reasons he wanted to kill Bella

    (Then, Laurent was killed by werewolves because of Bella. Then Victoria wanted her killed, started the newborns and then Jane found out about it.)

    Laurent and Victoria were also bad vampires that killed a lot of innocent people.

    ( Do you know how OLD Carlisle, Edward and Alice were? If Aro really wanted them that bad, he’d have gotten them a century ago.)

    Actually Carlisle left Aro before he made his family. Neither Aro or the other Volturi knew the Cullens had special vampires with them. The moment they found out Aro was plotting a way to get them.

    (The situation with James sped that up, but Bella making the choice to have that baby was beyond stupid. The story about vampire babies being a danger to human beings was already known and she still wanted to have a kid that was breaking her ribs. That was Bella’s fault. I didn’t feel sorry for her at all.)

    Well a mother wanting to die on the place of her child is something that did moved me. But that is a personal. I did felt sorry for her and understood her situation.

    (8. Cliff diving for her own reasons? She was cliff diving because she was so pathetic to see Edward again that she’d risk her own life, much like the motorcycle expedition that she talked Jacob into doing. What kind of friend is that? Let’s fix up these bikes for free labor, and I’ll rationalize it by paying for parts and doing homework just so I can see Edward. Wow, that’s not the types of friends I want.)

    Bella offered to pay Jacob was the one that turned it down. Even if her reasons were “pathetic” she couldn’t possibly know that Edward will kill himself over it. In any case it was Rosalie’s fault if she wouldn’t had called Edward to tell her the news he wouldn’t had go to Volterra and had come back directly to Forks to check on Bella like he planned. But again Rosalie didn’t imagined either that Edward loved Bella so much to go and kill himself so its not really her fault either.

    (Carlisle did NOT want Bella to become a vampire. He said “yes” because Edward stated he would not live without Bella. He knew he’d lose his son so he chose “yes.” Alice said Edward not turning Bella into a vampire was getting ridiculous because of all of the drama that came with her being a human. That vote came AFTER the situation with James and them having to leave the state and plot on an escape plan, not before.That was a survival mechanism, not daydreaming wishes to make Bella be one of the gang. The Cullens were happy to have her be a part of them WITHOUT being a vampire.)

    Actually Alice always wanted Bella to turn into a vampire even before she meet her. Jasper was also into it because it was a way to be able to be around her without wanting to kill her, Emmet wanted a new fight companion and Esme already considered her a daughter. Even if it was survival, Bella’s wishes were welcomed by the coven, they could had also vote NO and go with Edward’s plan of hiding her.

    Reply

    • October 4, 2010 9:50 pm

      Okay, we’re not going to agree about Jacob kissing Bella, so I’m deading that debate altogether. But I did want to say one thing, “bad vampire”? That’s what vampires do. They suck blood out of humans. That’s about as normal as people eating meat. Do you think people are bad for eating meat because if we’re going to call James a “bad vampire” then that means every omnivore is a “bad person” too. (Note: I’m saying this from the perspective of a five-year vegetarian.)

      I don’t recall Alice ever saying she wanted Bella to turn into a vampire. In “Midnight Sun,” she kept talking about how they’d be great friends. The only time I remember her saying anything about Bella being a vampire was when James came into the picture and turned their entire life around. As far as going to the baseball game, Bella knows how to move her legs. She knows how to say no. Just like she punched Jacob for kissing her, she could’ve simply said “no” to meeting his family, going to the baseball game or even re-entering his life in “New Moon.” She chose not to and had to deal with the effects of it. Jasper, Emmett and Esme never said a thing about desiring her to become a vampire until she asked for a vote. The only one who truly had a problem with her being human was Jasper, and that was because he was a “bad vampire” trying to be a “good vampire.”

      Her wishes weren’t welcomed. Bella being a vampire should have been an easy way to get out of fighting Victoria and not risking their vampire “lives” with the Volturi. If Bella hadn’t insisted on having a vampire child, risking their lives even further, the drama would’ve gone away. All the problems that Bella had were self-induced.

      • October 4, 2010 10:13 pm

        Bad vampire in the sense that they could abstain for killing innocent people and eating animals, because they consider people like cattle as well. In the books world’s the cullens and the Denali are the ones that revere human life and decide no to eat them so they are the good ones the other are merciless killing machines. In real life the choice to eat animals or not is a very personal choice and it doesn’t reflect on morality more often than not. I mean Hitler was a vegetarian and he was evil with all his letters.

        Alice did though that Bella was going to become one. This is the reason Edward doesn’t want her to explain to Bella how that is possible. Why would Bella not go to the baseball game? Edward wanted to take her to meet his family and everyone was happy to have her there. Is there any particular reason she would had to say no? No to mention that everyone though it was safe.

        Well the Cullens could had also said No or not to return to Forks as soon as Bella and Edward were back together or even forbid her to be on their house. So their willingness to take her back after what happened also shows that they wanted Bella as well. Also Bella wanted to become a vampire sooner Carlisle didn’t changed her right away after the vote for Charlie’s sake. They could had solved the problem sooner but neither of them expected Victoria to create the army and by the time they realized it it was safer to fight than to turn her into a bloodthirsty newborn. So Bella did though she waiting was more dangerous it was Edward and the Cullens that decided that they should wait.

        I think that Bella choosing Edward caused a lot of issues indeed, but not all of them. The Volturi’s specially were masked as lesser evil vampires that protected the law and it was not till the last moment they realized how dangerous they were. I mean Bella took a risk when dating Edward, but Edward and the Cullens were also risking a lot by welcoming her. But the Cullens indeed needed someone to complete the coven and Bella added a powerful shield and allies that helped them. If the Volturi would attacked at any other given moment they would had exterminated the coven and forced Edward and Alice to join then.

  16. cat permalink
    September 10, 2011 4:49 pm

    Option One: I think the relationship is one of the complaints from Twilighters. They tend to be more aligned towards Jacob/Bella relationship wise. The Twihards likely like the pairing because they can believe themselves to be Bella, she is such a blank slate.

    Option Two: Not surpised really.

    Option Three: I like Anne Hathaway, but I wonder if she would have picked up the show.

    – I can see that.
    – I’ve actually read/seen a few series that I prefer in this regaurd to Twilight. Bollywood is actually REALLY good at this.
    – Not sure where to stand on this one.
    – I just don’t like how Bella belittles her dad though. :C
    – I agree.
    – Not surprised.
    – Not surprised.
    – VERY MUCH NOT SURPISED.

    Interesting paper…

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